Thursday, October 23, 2014
Schadenfreude
While we were talking about the various definitions friendship and how sometimes we have friends for our benefit versus wishing goodwill on another, I instantly thought of a term I once heard. There is a German word called "Schadenfruede" which means the "satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune." Maybe you fail a test but then feel better when your friend fails as well, or it is your friend that trips on their own feet and not you. I believe it ties in to what Aristotle and Colin were saying in class that we do not wish the greatest good on our friends (i.e. becoming a God) since then we would no longer benefit from there friendship. I was wondering if anyone else has a comment about this idea of schadenfruede in which we do not actually want complete success for our friends better than ourselves, and how would Aristotle handle this type of situation?
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I think this is one of those things that sound rather harsh until you stop to think about it. It sounds wrong to not wish the best for your friends; I think we would all want to say that we want the best for our close friends. However, when looking at the examples I would have to agree that we are all guilty of this. I think a better way of thinking about it is that we all like to feel equal in relationship. So if a friend gets a far better grade on a test that you did not do so well on, it can create tension. Perhaps the person who did worse would feel inferior and this could cause the relationship to falter. But if both people did equally as good or bad they have something else they can bond over, as strange as that may seem to bond over a bad grade on a test. Misery loves company.
ReplyDeleteI think it certainly does sound harsh. I agree with what April said about how we might regard the friend as inferior (in the case of the friend doing better than you on a test), but I also think it comes back to Aristotle's notion of equality and proportionality. I think we wish the greatest goods upon friends to the point of equality in some cases, but in others, where there is no field of comparison between the friends, there is almost no limit to what good you will wish upon them.
ReplyDeleteLike April said, I think that this concept has a lot to do with the equality of a friendship. In Book 8, Aristotle argued that friendships can definitely be unequal, but this can only work if this inequality is made up for by love. In other words, the amount of loving in these friendships must be proportionate to the difference in equality between the two people. For example, one of my closest friends is extremely involved on campus and was able to obtain many of the same positions that I applied for and really wanted, but was not able to get. Perhaps if this were to occur with a friend who I wasn't as close with, I would probably get jealous and wish that they didn’t get these positions. However, because this particular friend shows so much love and support for me in every other aspect of my life, I can’t help but to be happy for her and her achievements. Therefore, I think that we only really feel “schadenfruede” if it is with an unequal friendship whose love isn’t proportionate to these inequalities.
ReplyDelete-Maureen Paglia
I like the idea that Maureen began, the idea of closeness within friendships determining this sense of schadenfreude. While I understand Aristotle's view upon wishing the greater good for our friends would make them a sort of God if such greatness was achieved, I do not think that this could be made to discount the need for a positivity within closeness of friendships. Maureen discusses the way that her close friend--by my definition, what a true friend would do--shows love and support for her; if this is the friendship, if this is what friendship is then I do not think there should really be any cause for schadenfreude. It is to my understanding that the friendship is lacking in more than closeness if one friend must feel superior to the other. Friendships may not require wishing the greatest good for the other, but this does not mean that we shouldn't wish for the greatest human goods for him or her.
ReplyDeleteI think this could also bring into question the friend, rather than the friendship, as well. Sometimes a friendship may be unequal in this way because one friend constantly needs the upper hand while the other simply supports and loves the other. We discussed in class the way that a man who has all he could ever want couldn't really benefit from being friends with someone with so much less because the latter couldn't give him really anything. Perhaps friendship should be an examination of the people within it, as well as the relationship itself.
-Amanda Eliades
I think Schadenfruede being a misguided sense of satisfaction or pleasure. While it's easy to find comfort when others do poorly when you do as well, I feel like this puts you in a state of complacent. We'd much rather watch our friends succeed and then push ourselves to also succeed than both of us fail. It's often said that successful people stay near people of similar success or people just out of their reach. I don't think you can truly call someone your friend — no matter what the consequences — if you don't want the absolute best for them, regardless of the consequences, because if you don't want the best for them you don't truly want the best for you. Because of this, I think Schadenfruede is a pleasure in terms of how Aristotle would discuss happiness. If we truly wasn't the best for others, the end result would be much more pleasurable.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Denis necessarily means that you want your friends to fail, just not to succeed as much as you. If you both take a test, you wouldn't want your friend to fail, but get a 99 while you get 100. I feel as though he isn't referring to complacency, but instead a sense of self-fulfillment. We are in essence selfish beings. We always want the absolute best for ourselves, and we may wish the absolute best for our friends but it just won't be as great as the best we wish for ourselves. We also would be able to be pushed by our friends still because we would still want to do better than them.
DeleteI think that this term does not really reflect on how we feel for others, it more reflects on how we are judging ourselves. In many situation we do wish our friends well (maybe not the greatest good because becoming a god would be a bit extreme), but in cases like this, we wish for our friends to suffer with us or even instead of us. When our friends suffer with us or instead of us it makes us feel better individually because it shows us that others are as stupid or as clumsy. What this also does is make our friendships stronger. These situations give us a way of relating to others and a sense of reassurance. This simultaneously provides us with a benefit from the friendship as well as making the link between the two friends stronger, which could bring the friends closer to a complete friendship. I believe that if Aristotle heard this term he would say that these friends have not yet reached the realm of complete friendship because this friendship is used as a way to gain something from someone else, namely reassurance that other people are not perfect as well (a friendship of utility). But this is a step to forming a complete friendship.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the term "Schadenfruede" may actual be referring someone with evil intentions enjoying others pain and misfortunes. When one feels better when he or she fails a test and then sees a friend fail the test, it makes he or she feel better not because he or she enjoys seeing the friend fail but rather feels better due to the fact that he or she does not need to suffer alone. Personally I feel better if i fail and see other people fail because it makes me feel better knowing that other people thought a test was hard and I can tell my parents that others thought it was hard too. For the other example of a friend tripping, I am assuming the person is laughing at his or her friend tripping. We must examine whether the person is laughing at watching his or her friend trip or watching them suffer in pain on the the group. I believe that a person is laughing at the fact that the friend actually tripped over his or her feet. I do not believe that friendship includes Schadenfruede.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Maureen’s point. If you were true friends with someone then you would be happy for them no matter if their success was greater than yours. I think the jealousy that arises when a friend does better than you, say on a test, could come from if you think you deserved a better grade then them. For example, you studied 1 to 2 hours a night for a week for that test while your friend only studied for 1 or 2 the night before. In that sense you would be happy if your friend failed when you failed because you felt like they didn’t deserve it. In most cases I would say that only occurs with a friend who you do not thinks deserves it. If you are very close friends with someone, though, you know them well enough and you know their strengths and weakness to feel like they deserve it. If you are becoming jealous of someone constantly because they do better than you in school or on a test, then it is really brings your friendship into question. You can be friends, but does that mean you are really good friends? Personally, I do not think so. As Maureen said, she felt that her friend supported in everything else she did and thus did not feel jealous. I can only assume that Maureen felt that her friend deserved the role if it was not going to be her.
ReplyDeleteAlso at some point you come to realize that while you may be unhappy with your grade and maybe wish that your friend did worse than you or you did better than them there is always someone smarter than you out there. Everyone has different learning styles and has certain strengths in certain areas. If your friend happens to be one of those people who is smarter than you in a certain area or doesn’t have to study as long for something, then you also realize at some point you are presented with a unique opportunity. They can help you study or teach you that concept that you did not learn. A smart person has friends who are as smart as they are or friends who is smarter than. A wise person has friends that are smarter than he or she, because they will constantly be learning.